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Author
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Topic: Are All Carrillos Built by Carrillo Himself??.....
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FrankB2
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 06:52 AM
   
I skaed this question in another post, but
the post had little to do with Carrillo.One of our esteemed forumites told me that
he/she bought a Carrillo last year (ebay
dealer), but his/her luthier found many
structural defects, and the dealer took the
guitar back. Anthony Dalton commented months
ago that not all Carrillos are built by
the man himself. Anybody know??? The CG Store in Philly sold the Carrillo
they got in a couple weeks ago, but have
one made with Caviuna B&S for $4450. It seems
to have the same nasty Rubner tuning machines
that my Giambattista *HAD*. Is this the
guitar you played Jeff???? Dave markle commented that Carrillo flamencos
are good, but he wasn't quite sure about the
classical models. Frank
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guitharsis
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 07:27 AM
Frank,This was discussed some in the 4/2 post Vicente Carrillo 1A Classicals. www.acousticguitar.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/003497.html
I've owned a 2002 Carrillo blanca flamenco, 655mm and a 2001 Lozano 1A, German spruce, Brazilian. Both wonderful guitars. It is my understanding that Lozano works alone but Carrillo definitely does not. Dave does say in his post, "Carrillo's brother-in-law, Casimiro Lozano, seems to be more of a specialist in classicals". I'm eagerly awaiting a 640mm Lozano on order from Zavaleta's. [This message has been edited by guitharsis (edited 07-30-2004).] |
zavaletas
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 07:52 AM
When I first began buying from Vicente Carrillo
he had one assistant, an old man who had worked with his mother in her factory. When he landed a contract from Paco de Lucia to make guitars for him, it is my understanding he added a number of workman, and put together a Ramirez style shop. James |
PatrickH
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 09:19 AM
It just isn't physically possible. A one-man shop is lucky to turn out 15 to 20 guitars a year. Lester DeVoe builds about 20 and I bet he is burning a bunch of midnight oil. With all of the dealers he has and the PDL deal, he must be doing a hundred or more a year. That being said, the only one I played was a very fine guitar.
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cricket
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 12:52 PM
Hi Frank,You posed a good question. I wish I’d known about this issue a few months ago. I’d already decided to order the Carrillo from Phil Hemmo, but found an “as new” one on ebay at an incredible price. The seller offered a 5-day approval period, so I took a chance. After the rave reviews by the guys at the CG Store and Phil himself, I expected a lot of the Carrillo. Unfortunately, it was a disappointment. The workmanship was nowhere near what a $2-3K guitar should be. But more important, the sound left a lot to be desired. The tone was just OK: not round enough and the volume was barely louder than my student guitar. It also buzzed quite a bit at the basses and there was not enough height on the saddle slot to support a taller saddle (IMO). There was also no neck relief. I realize that a spruce top needs some time to mature, but I wanted something decent out of the box that played easily—this was not it. I was able to return it, but it stopped me from ordering from Phil (even though he also offers a trial period). Had I known about the possibility of someone else other than Sr. Carrillo making the guitar, I would have tried Phil’s guitar. Maybe I should have anyway... Oh well, I ended up buying a cheaper guitar that blows away THAT Carrillo. Regards, cricket
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DB in PDX
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 01:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PatrickH:
With all of the dealers he has and the PDL deal, he must be doing a hundred or more a year.
So the question becomes, are ANY Carrillo guitars made by the man himself and if so how does one know which ones are which? Surely he must have a way of distinguishing his own guitars from those of his employees by signing his labels or whatever--unless of course for marketing purposes he'd rather not distinguish his from the rest of the pack. [This message has been edited by DB in PDX (edited 07-29-2004).] |
FrankB2
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 01:52 PM
Hi Cricket  The Carrillo that the CG Store
received sold F-A-S-T, so I'm guessing they
do make good guitars. The person that emailed
me to ask about Carrillos, said his/her really stunk, and he/she was too upset to post the matter at the time. He/she has some
swank guitars, so it wasn't their first high-end purchase. Phil Hemmo says that he hand picked the Carrillo he has in stock, so it's likely a
very safe bet . Frank
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C. Vega
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 01:54 PM
I was told, and this is strictly hearsay, by a prominent maker in Madrid (who shall remain nameless) that the bulk of the Carrillo guitars out there are made in a large workshop/small factory in Cuenca. This particular maker certainly has no axe to grind as he's plenty busy. He said that Carrillo does maintain a small workshop where some of the guitars are made but, like most of the Conde guitars these days, the bulk of them are made elsewhere.
I once had a bit of a "confrontation" on another forum with a Spanish distributor/dealer of the Carrillo Paco de Lucia models. He maintained that Carrillo made these himself under the "direct supervision" of Paco and his brother Ramon de Algeciras. I questioned how this was possible especially considering Paco and Ramon's busy performance and recording schedules not to mention the sheer numbers of non-Paco model Carrillo guitars that seem to be around these days. He kept referring me to his website that just said more or less the same thing but I pressed him further and he eventually said that they were made in a "small workshop"(?)in Cuenca (but not necessarily Carrillo's). I tried to get more details but he refused to answer any further questions.
I haven't seen or played a Paco model but the couple of others I've encountered were quite nice.
Considering that they are handled by a number of dealers in the U.S., the U.K. and mainland Europe and the fact that they don't seem to be in particularly short supply would lead me to suspect that at least some of them are coming from somewhere other than a "small workshop".
Things like signatures on labels often don't really mean anything other than that the guitar in question meets with the approval and was built to the specs of the maestro who heads the workshop. Ramirez III and IV and now Amalia Ramirez sign(ed) the guitars that were/are made in their workshop but they sure as hell didn't make all of them. As the business grew they became less hands-on luthiers and more shop managers. Pablo (Manuel II) Contreras also signs the labels of the top models from his shop but he'd be the first to admit that he doesn't make them all himself.
[This message has been edited by C. Vega (edited 07-29-2004).] |
FrankB2
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 01:58 PM
That's all I needed to read CV. Thanks !Hey him/her, did you read this thread  LOL. |
FrankB2
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 02:01 PM
Actually, this thread is related to my other
thread about North American luthiers, and
getting a better value for the dollar. It's
likely easier to ascertain who really makes
your guitar. |
Michael Dagdigian
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 04:00 PM
CV, why do you think that the bulk of the Conde guitars are not made in their own shop?
Just curious. Thanks. |
C. Vega
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 04:33 PM
There are three Conde shops in Madrid, the original former Esteso shop on C. Gravina, another on C. Atocha and a third and most highly touted and pricey one on C. Felipe V, each run by various branches of the family.
The Gravina and Atocha shops have no resident luthiers other than someone doing setups and minor repairs. The Gravina shop is run by the widow of Faustino Conde and if asked she will tell you that the guitars are made by "former apprentices of Faustino" but in another workshop. Yup, like the Ricardo Sanchis Carpio factory in Valencia. I've also heard that she's sold "the last guitar Faustino made" at least a few dozen times.
The Felipe V shop has two luthiers, Mariano Jr. and Felipe Conde, who are descendants of the original Conde brothers, Faustino, Julio and Mariano, who in turn were nephews of Domingo Esteso. While some guitars are made there, there's just no way those two guys could possibly make all the guitars bearing their label, signed or unsigned, that are sold under their name every year especially considering that they seem to spend a lot of time BSing with customers. [This message has been edited by C. Vega (edited 07-29-2004).] |
FrankB2
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 04:47 PM
That's it!!! I'm only buying homegrowns from
now on. Talk about smoke and mirrors  !!! |
C. Vega
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 05:01 PM
I certainly don't mean to imply that any of these guitars mentioned are not good instruments. It's just that the stories that go along with them tend to get a bit skewed at times. |
nexialist2.0
Member
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posted 07-29-2004 08:48 PM
yep, a lot off smoke and mirrors in Spanish guitars. I would say you are better off buying from an American maker....I'm still thinking about Nunez for a classical.....he doesn't seem to be stuck in tradition, and he makes them himself. Now, if I can sell the Hipner/Smallman I bought from the Evan I am halfway to a Nunez. Ricardo Sanchis Carpio builds magnificent instruments. Why pay twice the price for his guitars with a Conde label? I have 4 examples of his flamencos, from the lowly FL-2 to his 1AF Extra PS. The Fl-2 sounds as good as the 1AF extra. The fit/finish/sound on the 1AF Extra PS (negra) is equal to the best I have seen from any builder anywhere. Dan ps TheEvan, hows that Nunez holding out. I can't seem to get it out of my head. I don't have a Spruce topped classical. [This message has been edited by nexialist2.0 (edited 07-29-2004).] |
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