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Author
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Topic: Are All Carrillos Built by Carrillo Himself??.....
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zavaletas
Member
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posted 07-31-2004 09:00 AM
   
I agree that there is a lot of smoke and mirrors in Spanish guitars. Most makers who have retail shops sell factory made instruments that carry their label, but they do not pretend they make them, and distinguish them from their own instruments usually both in terms of the label it self, and by not signing them. (There are a couple exceptions) -- such as Conde. Carrillo was building by himself with one assistant who did sanding etc, until the PDL contract. This forced him into setting up a factory in his home town of Casasimarro. While there is some smoke and mirrors in Spain, my feeling is that there is just as much here by some people either do not know the facts or who will hype anything they are trying to sell. I take pride in knowing what's going on in Spain, and try to tell it like it is. If you have questions , I am always willing to share what I know. This forum is a great resource as a number of us are well informed.
James B. Greenberg
Zavaleta's La Casa de Guitarras http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com
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FrankB2
Member
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posted 07-31-2004 09:18 AM
James, My trust in your judgement, knowledge,
and integrity is boundless. I would CERTAINLY
have faith that any guitar you sold is precisely what you say it is. I've informed the poor soul who bought a "bargain" Carrillo
last year, that you make trips to Spain, and
are familiar with the luthiers you represent.
The same applies to Bob Page at the CG Store.
He makes regular visits to Spain and France,
to visit with the high-end luthiers he
represents.If my posts seemed to imply anything less than 100% integrity regarding your fine
instruments, please accept my apologies.
In addition, your prices are more than fair,
and I would be very reluctant to believe that
your getting rich quick selling guitars.
If I were to buy a Spanish guitar, Zavaletas
would be the first stop  ! Without revealing the seller or buyer, I should once again reiterate that this was
an ebay deal. The seller seems to be a decent
guy/gal, and knows guitars. He/she simply
offered a Carrillo at a very low price, and
apparently it wasn't the best specimen. I've
actually spoken to the seller on the phone
before, but beyond that, my lips are sealed
as per the buyer's request. Frank |
C. Vega
Member
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posted 07-31-2004 10:45 AM
I hope that I didn't give the impression that all Spanish dealers are less than honorable. Far from it.
As James pointed out, the vast majority of Spanish luthiers who also have retail shops and sell factory made guitars under their names are very straightforward about their wares and make very definite distinctions between these and the instruments from their own workshops both in how they are labeled and how they are represented. But as was also pointed out, there are a few merchants on both sides of the pond who are either misinformed or just don't care and will do and say whatever it takes to make a sale.[This message has been edited by C. Vega (edited 07-31-2004).] |
zavaletas
Member
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posted 08-10-2004 02:59 PM
Vicente Carrillo has read our post and sent me an email clarifying his current operation. I have translated it to share with readers of this forum. I have been able to read in a forum dedicated to the classic guitar that you say that from my contract with the guitars of Paco of Lucia I have had to expand my shop turning my shop into factory. I understand by guitar factory a plant that builds almost 100 daily units. At the moment I do not reach 20 units a month with my group of workers. To the contrary, there are people who are called luthiers, without naming names since all we know them, and have sales of 500 units a year, and say to the public that they work completely alone, this the great difference in honesty of each person. It was not a contract with De Lucia Gestión that forced to me to expand as your commentary suggested. If this company has decided to buy my guitars it is because quality of work that I have been able to offer to them is to their liking that they hope offers quality that name of Paco of Lucía deserves. You know my shop, I have not had to expand anything it did not have before, and it continues under my same direction, same way of work, and if anything, with much greater perfection than before; and, of course, practically with same machinery that you could verify having seen on your last the visit Casasimarro. I acknowledge, as I clarified once on the forum of flamenco-teacher.com., that my group of workers has expanded to 4 assistants but, this has not caused me to cease supervising or working on 100 % of all instruments that at the present time leave my shop. The reason why it is this way is that each one of my assistants specializes in a different process so that the perfection of these guitars is as high as possible. If we take into account that one of those four assistants is in charge of the varnishing the guitar, there are only three assistants left. Also I believe that there have been doubts as to the origin of my guitars. None of the guitars that bear my label and are signed by me are constructed outside of my shop. All are begun and finished in my shop, and anyone who wishes to visit Spain can come and verify this, and with pleasure I will take care of them as they really deserve. |
Jeff Hildreth
Member
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posted 08-10-2004 07:07 PM
Thank you JamesInteresting and generous response to questions that have been hanging.. So then, what is the difference between the Paco guitars and the
non Pacos found on several
sites on the web...do we conclude that the materials are better.. that Carillo
does more of the work
or...a bit of marketing hype?
or do we know.. What we now know by Carillos own words is that a single person ( not even Carillo himself) makes these guitars start to finish.. each man with a specialization..
sounds like Martin here in the US...
except the CFMIV supervises nothing but the supervisors.. Well .. you can pay $1000 more and get a Lozano... Play the guitar.. and decide.. jjh
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FrankB2
Member
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posted 08-10-2004 07:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by zavaletas:
None of the guitars that bear my label and are signed by me are constructed outside of my shop. All are begun and finished in my shop, and anyone who wishes to visit Spain can come and verify this, and with pleasure I will take care of them as they really deserve.
Hi James . Are all Carrillos signed by
Carrillo? Thanks for passing along the info
from Vicente! Frank |
zavaletas
Member
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posted 08-10-2004 08:55 PM
Judging from what Vicente has told us, I would say that he personally signs his guitars. Other than the fact that those guitars which bear PACO's signature are marketed by De Lucia Gestion rather than Vicente, I don't know if there are any differences between these and his standard models, so I won't engage in conjecture. Perhaps, if Vicente reads this, he may comment. |
scottw44
Member
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posted 08-10-2004 09:33 PM
Quite an interesting thread.I often wonder how much of the folklore associated with various brands can actually be attributed to the brand itself...and if we discount a brand because of the folklore, sometimes to our detriment? For me anyway, the keys are to deal with dealers or luthiers who you trust and who you know won't use you as guinea pigs, and then let your ears and hands dictate the instrument choice from the right dealer or luthier. When we think about the hours a week we spend with our instrument(s), I know we all want to really make sure we are happy before plunking down the dough. Too many sad stories of buyer remorse...fortunately, Ebay exists as a rescuse haven for all of us. Thanx James for arranging the translation. scott |
FrankB2
Member
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posted 08-10-2004 09:38 PM
Thanks James !!! Have you seen the Carrillo
guitars that the CG Store just received????
Carrillo[I'm still keeping my eye on your Antonio Lopez Maestro BTW!!!! The Alvarez($5,500+/-)
on your site has a FANTASTIC sound! I would
encourage anybody intersted in a sweet
sound to check out the mp3 for the Alvarez:
Alvarez ***TYPO'S [This message has been edited by FrankB2 (edited 08-10-2004).] |
zavaletas
Member
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posted 08-10-2004 10:09 PM
Frank,Vicente is making a quality instrument, and the they keep getting better. There is a lot of interest in the Antonio Lopez maestro-- because I bought it while the dollar was still strong and haven't raised the price it is an especially good deal. The next ones I import will probably be 30 percent more. The Alvarez is a sweet guitar all around. |
FrankB2
Member
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posted 08-10-2004 10:15 PM
James, Your prices are still the best .
I like the CG Store, but low prices aren't
what they're known for. The Antonio Picado
guitars they carry ARE much less than Trilogy
and other shops, but that's about it. Off to Zavaleta Land for mp3's, and shopping! Frank
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Anthony Dalton
Member
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posted 08-11-2004 05:49 AM
OK, so going by Vicente Carrillo's own statements, the guitars are essentially made by commiteee with certain workers performing specific tasks. With himself and three assistants doing the construction work (discounting one assistant doing the finishing), say at a production rate of 18 guitars a month or approximately 216 guitars annually, that figures out to 54 instruments/yr. per worker. That seems like a lot to me. |
toncol
Member
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posted 08-11-2004 07:59 AM
Just goes to show how very difficult it is to buy a guitar.I have a Carrillo 'Gabriella' model. I think it is wonderful. My teacher (a concert guitarist) considers its sound and performance as excellent for the price range (around £2200.00 in UK ($3500.00)). Only experts in the field are able to make a real judgement based upon time, experience and exposure to many different guitars and the business surrounding manufacture and distribution. I researched as a buyer with little experience and found that this make was highly regarded and considered a quality purchase. I also know that I could have purchased at least 10 other guitars I was looking at in the price range, all with excellent recomendations. For the player who lacks the possibility to try everytning a certain amount of faith is required, and belief in word of mouth and other recommendations. All of which can very easily be refuted by another 'expert'. Maybe the rule is check for yourself, ask around, try what you can, but never ever try to get someone else to justify or support your choice. That is one way of guaranteeing you will only end up dissappointed or at the very least doubting your decision and spoiling your fun!! |
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