posted 05-09-2002 09:54 AM               

What I think I do agree with you is that this style of music (original compositions around simple themes/riffs) can be seen as endless/soulless exercises in riffs. To my ear, there needs to be a more complex exploration of a theme on many levels before I feel the music "stands up." If the player just plays the same riff 7 times, each successively louder, softer, faster or slower, not much interest is created for me -- IMO.

However, the players who really catch my ear are the ones who can separate the melody line in volume and attack to accentuate a melody line on top of (or below) harmony/counterpoint. Guys like Chris Proctor, Pierre Bensusan, Doug Smith, El McMeen, Larry Pattis (there are others) acomplish this IMO opinion. As I have said before though, Leo (to my ear) plays thundering riff and after riff and rarely demonstrates a more melodic style.

posted 05-09-2002 11:40 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by PaulsDad:
For the past week or so, I have been working on a couple of Mississippi John Hurt tunes and feel like I am just missing something. Now I have to wonder whether MJH played some of his songs in alt. tunings (I have no tablature or instruction materials to rely upon, just playing by ear.) Could this be the reason I just can't seem to get the sound I hear in his music (of course I'm not ruling out my apparent lack of dexterity as another possible culprit)?

---

Hey,

I've seen a discussion about this before... All MJH songs, except for one or two, were originally played in standard tuning. (Seems like a lot of 'em are in C) Get your thumb wrappin'!

Steven Grossman has this two CD/book combo of MJH. Some of the tabs are reputedly a little iffy, but I'm sure they capture most of the song. I think it's only $20 or so from Grossman's site (it will be on my Christmas list this fall...)

posted 05-10-2002 11:34 AM              

Thanks for the suggestion. I ordered the book this morning. Can't wait to get it in hand.

posted 05-11-2002 06:54 PM            

I got hooked on some of Al Petteway's tunes and since re-tuning a 12-string is a drag, I just kind of left it in DADGAD. Before long I found I was actually "thinking" in DADGAD.

Is it the most common? There are a lot of opinions right here already so I need not weigh in on that one. Will it replace standard...NAHHHHHHHHH!!! Although I've heard some say that DADGAD is becoming almost "another standard tuning".

JW

posted 05-13-2002 06:40 AM               

Since I really have a hard time giving up standard tuning altogether, I keep two guitars tuned differently to make it easy to work on each tuning. Unlike the wealth of information found on how to learn the standard tuning fretboard, the altered tuning fretboard needs to be learned "a new" without a lot of CAGED/Fretboard logic methods.

posted 05-19-2002 05:31 AM            

quote:

---

Is this the most common dropped open tuning? Is there a source somewhere that shows fingerings for basic chords shapes in this tuning?

---

Some interesting points have been made about composing vs. noodling which could just as easily apply to standard tuning as to any so called alternate tuning. After all, where is the line between noodling and improvising?

I've heard Pierre Bensusan or Phil Keaggy or Ralph Towner improvisations that had more depth than many compostions I've heard. I read a quote once that said "...the only difference between composition and improvisation is the time factor". I wish I could remember who originally said it.

That being said, I think when Steve is refering to the "Yellow Pages Method", he's talking about the typically New-Agey, swimming in reverb, fingerstyle meanderings that we've all heard from time to time. I think one of the hallmarks of a great writer is that they already have the tune in their head before it comes out on the instrument.

posted 05-25-2002 01:27 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by anton:
"The only difference between improvisation and composition is the time factor".

I think that was said by David Grisman in an interview with him and Jerry Garcia a few years back in AG.

---

David Grisman is not the Goliath issue of this debate.It is the two central figures that hold centre stage in this calamity of conflict.Therefore,it`s worth pondering both sides of the equation,for a balanced outcome.Each contributor has thoughful views, each contender has a point to score,for a result that will yield a formulae that creates a successful resolution. Further, who is the referee in this musical arena?Public taste,Social scrutiny,the entourage of notable fingerstylists whose names appear in this brief interlude of writings.Or are there other things to consider when one regards a creative process,dealing with composition versus `noodling`,standard versus open tunings,emotions versus reason,the intellectual versus the practical, in this `colossus cakewalk of the non-Golliwogs`. Firstly,a guitarist who exploits standards tunings to its limits with barr chords,will in the end be capable of producing more tone colours and music of a higher calibre than a player who with one or two finger-chords noodles in DADGAD or CGCGCD or any other tunings.The success formulae is simple.The relationships of the strings in standard tuning with the use of barr chords, allow a guitarist the ability to weave in an out of more keys to extend the range of melodies beyond the hundrum,to attain a richer myriads of chords,to create a music and dynamics more than`a noddler`is capable of,or impossible in open tunings.The professional noodler in open tunings who claims to have a command of the fretboard may arrive at interesting creations,but this is the exception rather than the rule.Moving music may start from a catchy phrase, that you are building, but there arrives a moment when the passion of the heart will take control and depending on your experiences, your values and beliefs and your innerself a greater force will dominate your creations.The power of the ability to create music relies more on the spirit which in combinations with your senses and perceptions will yield your fruits of labour.It is this higher nature in our existence that makes others turn their heads with our music, that like drama, is a form of entertainment,that is both tragic and comical.Our music is both pathetic and grand,it can make us cry or plunge us into dooms of despair, or it may even laugh at our foible attempts,our own failings as individuals.The ultimate goal with music is to brake out of this imprisonment to greater heights to reach levels of attainments in good quality art that gives us happiness, peace of mind, and makes us care for one another through respect and brotherhood of humanity.When we achieve this outcome,then the adventures and journeys are the start of better things to come in our on-going life, and well-being in our world.
This is the soundtrack that the seasons sing and the best music that an audience loves to listen to, at the movies. Yours cordially,Gaetano.

posted 05-25-2002 01:40 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by anton:
"The only difference between improvisation and composition is the time factor".

I think that was said by David Grisman in an interview with him and Jerry Garcia a few years back in AG.

---

I think that was said by David Grisman in an interview with him and Jerry Garcia a few years back in AG.[/B][/QUOTE]

David Grisman is not the Goliath issue of this debate.It is the two central figures that hold centre stage in this calamity of conflict.Therefore,it`s worth pondering both sides of the equation,for a balanced outcome.Each contributor has thoughful views, each contender has a point to score,for a result that will yield a formulae that creates a successful resolution. Further, who is the referee in this musical arena?Public taste,Social scrutiny,the entourage of notable fingerstylists whose names appear in this brief interlude of writings.Or are there other things to consider when one regards a creative process,dealing with composition versus `noodling`,standard versus open tunings,emotions versus reason,the intellectual versus the practical, in this `colossus cakewalk of the non-Golliwogs`. Firstly,a guitarist who exploits standards tunings to its limits with barr chords,will in the end be capable of producing more tone colours and music of a higher calibre than a player who with one or two finger-chords noodles in DADGAD or CGCGCD or any other tunings.The success formulae is simple.The relationships of the strings in standard tuning with the use of barr chords, allow a guitarist the ability to weave in an out of more keys to extend the range of melodies beyond the hundrum,to attain a richer myriads of chords,to create a music and dynamics more than`a noddler`is capable of,or impossible in open tunings.The professional noodler in open tunings who claims to have a command of the fretboard may arrive at interesting creations,but this is the exception rather than the rule.Moving music may start from a catchy phrase, that you are building, but there arrives a moment when the passion of the heart will take control and depending on your experiences, your values and beliefs and your innerself a greater force will dominate your creations.The power of the ability to create music relies more on the spirit which in combinations with your senses and perceptions will yield your fruits of labour.It is this higher nature in our existence that makes others turn their heads with our music, that like drama, is a form of entertainment,that is both tragic and comical.Our music is both pathetic and grand,it can make us cry or plunge us into dooms of despair, or it may even laugh at our foible attempts,our own failings as individuals.The ultimate goal with music is to brake out of this imprisonment to greater heights to reach levels of attainments in good quality art that gives us happiness, peace of mind, and makes us care for one another through respect and brotherhood of humanity.When we achieve this outcome,then the adventures and journeys are the start of better things to come in our on-going life, and well-being in our world.
This is the soundtrack that the seasons sing and the best music that an audience loves to listen to, at the movies. Yours cordially,Gaetano.

posted 05-25-2002 01:46 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by anton:
"The only difference between improvisation and composition is the time factor".

I think that was said by David Grisman in an interview with him and Jerry Garcia a few years back in AG.

---

I think that was said by David Grisman in an interview with him and Jerry Garcia a few years back in AG.[/B][/QUOTE]

David Grisman is not the Goliath issue of this debate.It is the two central figures that hold centre stage in this calamity of conflict.Therefore,it`s worth pondering both sides of the equation,for a balanced outcome.Each contributor has thoughful views, each contender has a point to score,for a result that will yield a formulae that creates a successful resolution. Further, who is the referee in this musical arena?Public taste,Social scrutiny,the entourage of notable fingerstylists whose names appear in this brief interlude of writings.Or are there other things to consider when one regards a creative process,dealing with composition versus `noodling`,standard versus open tunings,emotions versus reason,the intellectual versus the practical, in this `colossus cakewalk of the non-Golliwogs`. Firstly,a guitarist who exploits standards tunings to its limits with barr chords,will in the end be capable of producing more tone colours and music of a higher calibre than a player who with one or two finger-chords noodles in DADGAD or CGCGCD or any other tunings.The success formulae is simple.The relationships of the strings in standard tuning with the use of barr chords, allow a guitarist the ability to weave in an out of more keys to extend the range of melodies beyond the hundrum,to attain a richer myriads of chords,to create a music and dynamics more than`a noddler`is capable of,or impossible in open tunings.The professional noodler in open tunings who claims to have a command of the fretboard may arrive at interesting creations,but this is the exception rather than the rule.Moving music may start from a catchy phrase, that you are building, but there arrives a moment when the passion of the heart will take control and depending on your experiences, your values and beliefs and your innerself a greater force will dominate your creations.The power of the ability to create music relies more on the spirit which in combinations with your senses and perceptions will yield your fruits of labour.It is this higher nature in our existence that makes others turn their heads with our music, that like drama, is a form of entertainment,that is both tragic and comical.Our music is both pathetic and grand,it can make us cry or plunge us into dooms of despair, or it may even laugh at our foible attempts,our own failings as individuals.The ultimate goal with music is to brake out of this imprisonment to greater heights to reach levels of attainments in good quality art that gives us happiness, peace of mind, and makes us care for one another through respect and brotherhood of humanity.When we achieve this outcome,then the adventures and journeys are the start of better things to come in our on-going life, and well-being in our world.
This is the soundtrack that the seasons sing and the best music that an audience loves to listen to, at the movies. Yours cordially,Gaetano.

posted 05-25-2002 01:48 AM              

David Grisman is not the Goliath issue of this debate.It is the two central figures that hold centre stage in this calamity of conflict.Therefore,it`s worth pondering both sides of the equation,for a balanced outcome.Each contributor has thoughful views, each contender has a point to score,for a result that will yield a formulae that creates a successful resolution. Further, who is the referee in this musical arena?Public taste,Social scrutiny,the entourage of notable fingerstylists whose names appear in this brief interlude of writings.Or are there other things to consider when one regards a creative process,dealing with composition versus `noodling`,standard versus open tunings,emotions versus reason,the intellectual versus the practical, in this `colossus cakewalk of the non-Golliwogs`. Firstly,a guitarist who exploits standards tunings to its limits with barr chords,will in the end be capable of producing more tone colours and music of a higher calibre than a player who with one or two finger-chords noodles in DADGAD or CGCGCD or any other tunings.The success formulae is simple.The relationships of the strings in standard tuning with the use of barr chords, allow a guitarist the ability to weave in an out of more keys to extend the range of melodies beyond the hundrum,to attain a richer myriads of chords,to create a music and dynamics more than`a noddler`is capable of,or impossible in open tunings.The professional noodler in open tunings who claims to have a command of the fretboard may arrive at interesting creations,but this is the exception rather than the rule.Moving music may start from a catchy phrase, that you are building, but there arrives a moment when the passion of the heart will take control and depending on your experiences, your values and beliefs and your innerself a greater force will dominate your creations.The power of the ability to create music relies more on the spirit which in combinations with your senses and perceptions will yield your fruits of labour.It is this higher nature in our existence that makes others turn their heads with our music, that like drama, is a form of entertainment,that is both tragic and comical.Our music is both pathetic and grand,it can make us cry or plunge us into dooms of despair, or it may even laugh at our foible attempts,our own failings as individuals.The ultimate goal with music is to brake out of this imprisonment to greater heights to reach levels of attainments in good quality art that gives us happiness, peace of mind, and makes us care for one another through respect and brotherhood of humanity.When we achieve this outcome,then the adventures and journeys are the start of better things to come in our on-going life, and well-being in our world.
This is the soundtrack that the seasons sing and the best music that an audience loves to listen to, at the movies. Yours cordially,Gaetano.

posted 05-25-2002 06:28 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Sarad:
Gee willikers,

As long as you are criticizing my music with out ever having heard it, let me say that playing guitar is very much like making love to oneself or another: it makes one feel good;
there are certain riffs one can rely on all the time; try and spice it up when it becomes boring, and for many players, it is a private act.

---

Matt,

Having had the benefit of hearing your music and compositions, it's my guess that most of what you do doesn't fall under the catagory of noodling to which Mr. Baughman refers.

I will say however, that your metaphor is apt. I think the type of playing to which frailer refers is much like "...making love to oneself..." -- and at times it can be painfully embarrassing for others to "watch" (again, this falling under the category of what is put out for public consumption -- what one does in the privacy of their homes is, well....).

It even goes back to previous conversations we've engaged in here about performance and communication. I've been to fingerstyle concerts where there is absolutely no connecting with the audience by the guitarist. He stands/sits up there and the only "connecting" he does is with the guitar. Kinda leaves the audience feeling like they were intruders on a private act.

Again, what one does at home is one's own bidniz -- but when they try to "sell" it to the public, certain changes in consideration are probably going to apply.

My best guess is that good composition may be arrived at by accident and experiment carefully and knowledgebly edited.

posted 05-25-2002 04:29 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by anton:
"The only difference between improvisation and composition is the time factor".

I think that was said by David Grisman in an interview with him and Jerry Garcia a few years back in AG.

---

I think that was said by David Grisman in an interview with him and Jerry Garcia a few years back in AG.[/B][/QUOTE]

David Grisman is not the Goliath issue of this debate.It is the two central figures that hold centre stage in this calamity of conflict.Therefore,it`s worth pondering both sides of the equation,for a balanced outcome.Each contributor has thoughful views, each contender has a point to score,for a result that will yield a formulae that creates a successful resolution. Further, who is the referee in this musical arena?Public taste,social scrutiny,the entourage of notable fingerstylists whose names appear in this brief interlude of writings.Or are there other things to consider when one regards a creative process,dealing with composition versus `noodling`,standard versus open tunings,emotions versus reason,the intellectual versus the practical, in this `colossus cakewalk of the non-Golliwogs`. Firstly,a guitarist who exploits standards tunings to its limits with barr chords,will in the end be capable of producing more tone colours and music of a higher calibre than a player who with one or two finger-chords noodles in DADGAD or CGCGCD or any other tunings.The success formulae is simple.The relationships of the strings in standard tuning with the use of barr chords, allow a guitarist the ability to weave in an out of more keys to extend the range of melodies beyond the hundrum,to attain a richer myriads of chords,to create a music and dynamics more than`a noddler`is capable of,or impossible in open tunings.The professional noodler in open tunings who claims to have a command of the fretboard may arrive at interesting creations,but this is the exception rather than the rule.Moving music may start from a catchy phrase, that you are building, but there arrives a moment when the passion of the heart will take control and depending on your experiences, your values and beliefs and your innerself a greater force will dominate your creations.The power of the ability to create music relies more on the spirit which in combinations with your senses and perceptions will yield your fruits of labour.It is this higher nature in our existence that makes others turn their heads with our music, that like drama, is a form of entertainment,that is both tragic and comical.Our music is both pathetic and grand,it can make us cry or plunge us into dooms of despair, or it may even laugh at our foible attempts,our own failings as individuals.The ultimate goal with music is to brake out of this imprisonment to greater heights to reach levels of attainments in good quality art that gives us happiness, peace of mind, and makes us care for one another through respect and brotherhood of humanity.When we achieve this outcome,then the adventures and journeys are the start of better things to come in our on-going life, and well-being in our world.
This is the soundtrack that the seasons sing and the best music that an audience loves to listen to, at the movies. Yours cordially,Gaetano.