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 Discussion Forums
 Luthiers' Corner
 Titebond Hide glue? (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: Titebond Hide glue? |
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Rod True Member |
posted 11-12-2003 12:02 AM
   
Wondering if anyone has used it? and what were the results? |
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Paul Hostetter Member |
posted 11-12-2003 12:29 AM
As they say in Ireland: fookin' dreadful. The bottled stuff is mucilage, not even technically glue ... useful for sticking down paper labels, and not much more. Frank Ford has the word on real hide glue on his frets.com site. [This message has been edited by Paul Hostetter (edited 11-12-2003).] |
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Curtis Smith Member |
posted 11-12-2003 09:19 AM
I'm sure Paul has had more experience than I, so I would normally bow to his wisdom. However, I have used this glue to repair a bridge on an old Yamaha with good results. You have to check the manufacture date on the bottle and get the freshest possible. The bottle I used was less than a month old. I couldn't vouch for some that I saw on the shelf that was more than a year old. |
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Charles Hoffman Moderator |
posted 11-12-2003 11:52 AM
The Franklins liquid glue is, as Paul points out, worse than useless. It has so many additives that it simply has none of the qualities of traditional hide glue. However, the Franklins Titebond is fine and most of us use it a lot. (But not Titebond II) The point about getting it fresh is a good one. For what its worth there is a number printed on each bottle which tells you that. The relevant numbers (and letter) are the first two. The first number is for the year (i.e. 3 is for this year). The second is a letter and refers to the month of manufacture. So, a is January, b is February, etc, except that they do not use the letter i. So, 3f is june of 2003. |
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Rick Turner Member |
posted 11-12-2003 03:41 PM
You'd likely get just as good results with boogers during a good cold as with "liquid hide glue." |
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Paul Hostetter Member |
posted 11-12-2003 04:57 PM
Curtis - I too am assuming you're actually mistakenly referring to the normal yellowish aliphatic Titebond carpenter's glue, not the so-called "hide glue" because there is no age consideration with the bottled hide stuff. It’s made to last indefinitely in the bottle without kicking or doing much of anything. [This message has been edited by Paul Hostetter (edited 11-12-2003).] |
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Michael Darnton Member |
posted 11-12-2003 07:08 PM
Liquid hide glue is the devil's own glue. |
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FrankB2 Member |
posted 11-12-2003 07:52 PM
Back in my early days of cabinet making, I thought a squeeze bottle of *hide* glue would be neat. As Paul et al have pointed out, it's worse than worthless, and the cabinets had to be taken apart, and re-glued. Titebond AR is great, however. I used Franklin Hide glue, BTW. I couldn't even get the cap to stick to the bottle  !Have Fun, Frank |
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Frank Ford Moderator |
posted 11-12-2003 09:27 PM
What's all this, then? Years ago, namely 30 years ago, I made a few dozen instruments using Franklin liquid hide glue exclusively. NONE of them exhibited ANY difficulty at all with the glued parts and today they are still hanging together. Here are a few, in the FRETS.COM museum: Now, all that said, sometime after 1974, I did run into a situation that will keep me from ever using that glue again - a bad batch. EVERY bridge reglue came apart within weeks. So, it turns out that liquid hide glue has these chemical "gel extenders" that make the stuff remain liquid at room temperature. These same chemicals also start breaking down the long chain collagen molecules from the moment they are introduced, until the glue eventually loses most or all of its usefulness. The liquid hide glue ABSOLUTELY has a limited shelf life, and it's not all that long. I understand that, unlike 30 years ago, it's age-dated, but I choose not to trust it at all. It's better, I think, to learn to use the "real stuff." Here's what I know about hide glue: and, don't miss this: FF |
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resophil Member |
posted 11-13-2003 08:30 AM
When I was an apprentice, one of the "grunt work" jobs assigned to us, was to keep the hot glue pot cleaned and filled with the right mixture. Just outside the finishing room was a small alcove where there were a couple of glue pots heated by a water bath from the shop boiler. We never let glue stand for more than 2 days without discarding, cleaning the pot, and making a fresh batch. And we didn't worry too much about different strengths; we used the same mix for everything from veneering to general cabinet work. When you wanted some glue, you got the pot and kept it hot at your bench with an ordinary hotplate to warm the water bath. One of the journeymen in the shop was trained in France. He said that in his apprentice days, things were the same, except the stove was wood fired and the fires had to be banked so that they didn't go out overnight. One apprentice even came in on the weekends to stoke the fire. On the same woodstove that they used to keep their glue warm, they also kept the "potage" as he called it. This was a sort of communal stew pot that everyone used. Each person would bring some meat, potatoes, and vegetables which would all be chopped up, thrown in the pot with some stock and left to simmer for the noon meal. He bemoaned the fact that the glue pots were kept cleaner than the potage! Since hide glue is mainly animal protein, it is kept at a nice warm temperature, and it is wet, it makes a lovely home for all sorts of bacteria, mold, and fungi, which thrive in the same conditions it takes to make good hot glue. It was discovered long ago that a pinch of urea is an excellent preservative for hot glue, acting as an antibacterial agent, and having the added benefit of increasing slightly the "open" time. (before the glue gels, or sets) Ordinary garden fertilizer (x-0-0) works just fine for this purpose. Make sure that the last two numbers are 0-0, the first number is nitrogen content. However, beyond a point, the dry strength of the glue is affected mightily, although it will keep almost indefinitely. I think this is what the problem with liquid hide glue is; they're trying to walk a fine line between a product that will stay liquid for a long time, and one which still has sufficient strength for woodworking. C. Vega has long advocated the use of this stuff for the final step of guitar construction; gluing in the label. I concur wholeheartedly! -Phil |
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bricks Member |
posted 11-13-2003 09:35 AM
Pardon me for hiajcking this tread for a second: does anyone know what the gram strength is for the ground hide glue that Stew-Mac sells??? thanks, |
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fleshkopter2 Member |
posted 11-13-2003 09:38 PM
yeah, it's 256. If by chance you are looking for 192, try Luthier's Mercantile. |
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Frank Ford Moderator |
posted 11-13-2003 10:55 PM
For what it's worth, I've not been able to detect any difference in workability in the 192 - 256 ranges, so I definitely consider them equivalent. |
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bricks Member |
posted 11-14-2003 06:49 AM
Thanks fleshkopter2 and Frank. Useful information. I can get 150g and 260g strength locally from Lee Valley Tools, so I may experiment with the 260 and see how that goes. I can also get pure urea so I could try adding 5% to the 260 if I have trouble with the working time. thanks once again, |
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John Mayes Member |
posted 11-18-2003 10:49 AM
I tried the Liquid "hide" Glue one time..well actually I just did some tests. I glues some peices together and then came back the next day, took off the clamps, and with a large flat head screwdriver (crude I know) I pretty eaisly pryed the peices apart. The peices popped away from each other not even leaving any traces of a bond. I threw the stuff away and I have used Orginal Titebond ever since. |
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