posted 03-20-2004 10:25 PM               

I am very familiar with our electric guitar division. I know what occurs there and there Gibson is not second to anyone. That is also not dilusional. Are we perfect? No. Never claimed that. Only that the others are not building a better product.

The real bottom line with quality or the effects of the suits that Gibson...or others bring against others in the business...is the response of the buyers. Not here by this fairly small and segmented group of players. The final vote is the pocket book of the buyer. If you feel another product is better, then buy it. If you feel our product is over priced for the quality, then don't buy it. Vote with your pocket book.

If the assertations of JM, Jeff, or others were factual, our product would be languishing in teh warehouse and not in the hands of the players all over the world. One cannot maintain its market position with inferior product or quality. That was proven during the Norlin era.

Finally, the assertation that our product is somehow inferior to the pre Norling product is completely ridiculous. You have a right to that opinion, but opinion is not truth. As with any company there are times when the product is better than others. In our division we are currently building the finest product EVER...even better than the Loar era. THat is not opinion and that is also the attitude of most of the market. It is reflected in our sales and market position. It is also seen in the artists using our product. One thing I can guarantee about artists. They will not use a product just because it is available. They will only use what they like and will do the job as they need it to do. There is clearly a reason so many of the artists are going to Gibson and they are continuing to do so. The only explanation for that is the instrument is what they want to play. The same with our Custom Shop and Electric shop and, yes, even our Acoustic division. It is amazing how many more bands are using Gibson now than any other time in history. History alone does not make them want to play these instruments. The product stands on its own merits and the public decides whether the quality is there when they vote with their pocketbook. All other arguments are merely opinion and gossip. You are entitled to your opinion but just don't confuse that with truth.

posted 03-20-2004 10:26 PM               

I am very familiar with our electric guitar division. I know what occurs there and there Gibson is not second to anyone. That is also not dilusional. Are we perfect? No. Never claimed that. Only that the others are not building a better product.

The real bottom line with quality or the effects of the suits that Gibson...or others bring against others in the business...is the response of the buyers. Not here by this fairly small and segmented group of players. The final vote is the pocket book of the buyer. If you feel another product is better, then buy it. If you feel our product is over priced for the quality, then don't buy it. Vote with your pocket book.

If the assertations of JM, Jeff, or others were factual, our product would be languishing in teh warehouse and not in the hands of the players all over the world. One cannot maintain its market position with inferior product or quality. That was proven during the Norlin era.

Finally, the assertation that our product is somehow inferior to the pre Norling product is completely ridiculous. You have a right to that opinion, but opinion is not truth. As with any company there are times when the product is better than others. In our division we are currently building the finest product EVER...even better than the Loar era. THat is not opinion and that is also the attitude of most of the market. It is reflected in our sales and market position. It is also seen in the artists using our product. One thing I can guarantee about artists. They will not use a product just because it is available. They will only use what they like and will do the job as they need it to do. There is clearly a reason so many of the artists are going to Gibson and they are continuing to do so. The only explanation for that is the instrument is what they want to play. The same with our Custom Shop and Electric shop and, yes, even our Acoustic division. It is amazing how many more bands are using Gibson now than any other time in history. History alone does not make them want to play these instruments. The product stands on its own merits and the public decides whether the quality is there when they vote with their pocketbook. All other arguments are merely opinion and gossip. You are entitled to your opinion but just don't confuse that with truth.

posted 03-20-2004 10:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Big Joe:
... Do you list who your employer is??? .... .

---

Since this is a guitar forum and I don't work for a major guitar manufacturer, no. You can be damn sure however that if I am involved in a heated discussion in which I am promoting the side of my employer I will, and if I happen to "forget", inquieries by others about any connection will jog my memory before sombody else has to dig that connection out.

As to the rest.....you said it yourself, you are entitled to your opinion just don't confuse it with the truth.

posted 03-20-2004 11:11 PM            

Banjo division.. I believe you outsource most of the components of your banjos

Best bluegrass instruments...ok
I'm gonna leave that on alone...still choking

Having owned a half dozen pre 46 Gibson instruments.. I beg to differ about pre Norlin...but that is an opinion....

What is a fact are the common posts about spotty Gibson quality and lack of value..not just here on the AG.. are we all deluded..
you mean that isn't orange peel.. those arent protruding frets..the L-oo doesnt sound like its stuffed with socks... the paint is coming off the J 150 pick guard
And the Dobros.. oh yeah the Dobros..right they're the best...uh huh

Joe I admire your blind loyalty but jingoism will take you only so far in the real world.....time to climb out from under the mushroom

Many makers produce equal andsuperior products to Gibson and prove it every day...........Guilds, Gretschs, Collings
on and on

Point of fact I had an Ibanez AS 200 ..
far superior to a Gibson 335.. by any measure
A lowly pac rim copy ... better wood.. better fit and finish...
but that again is anecdotal..

Other than some crummy fret work.. nearly every Heritage of the same model as a Gibson was better built and cheaper... again anecdotal but common...

I believe that if it were not for famous historical players...Gibson would have far fewer sales

jjh

posted 03-21-2004 03:42 AM            

You're on the right course guys. You've got high-quality products that stand up to stiff competition in spite of their relatively higher prices. That's a position every company envies and THAT PROVES GIBSON'S GOT HIGH-QUALITY MANAGEMENT AND STAFF.

Your management also is performing very well in regard to the PRS issue. Win or lose you can't take trademark infringement lightly and you can't just sit in your offices and cry about it. Some of us give Gibson a lot of credit for the lawuit and hope you prevail. I'm one of them.

As you know, this board is NOT representative of guitar players. 99% of the potential buyers either never heard of the lawsuit or don't give a damn about the business doings behind the instruments. The other 1% weren't going to buy a Gibson in the first place so your net loss is ZERO.

Let me leave you with a laugh: Just imagine some player somewhere who is having a woodie over a Les Paul in some shop. He's thinking about it and going over his finances in his head. He's played it 20 times in the past 2 weeks. He KNOWS black is his color. And he decides to buy.

THEN HE FINDS OUT ABOUT THE LAWSUIT. HE IS CRUSHED, ANGRY, DISILLUSIONED, HURT. How could Gibson do such a horrible thing? How could their lawyers not know they'd fail? Why didn't they check with the guys on the AG boards first? HOW COULD I EVER BE HAPPY WITH A LES PAUL NOW?!?

So he buys a PRS Santana and is laughed at for the rest of his life...

posted 03-21-2004 03:42 AM               

It's clearly not a very charitable act on Gibson's part. But charity and business don't sit easily together. Gibson obviously have a responsibility to their shareholders and to their employees.

It's perhaps a little too easy to criticise Gibson's lack of charity when neither our jobs nor our investments are at risk by taking that line.

Let's hope it's all sorted out quickly without too much of anyone's money going to the lawyers.

Cheers

posted 03-21-2004 05:05 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sweet Tyrone:
"As you know, this board is NOT representative of guitar players".

No, this is the acoustic bagpipes forum, what do we know about guitars?

---

Sweet, what were you smoking during logic class at school?

The people on this board DO know a lot about acoustic guitars. No debate. Whether they are representative of the guitar buying public at large is a different question altogether.

posted 03-21-2004 05:22 AM               

I know managers get axed by Henry without warning, I can see where this zealous defense of the company could be of value to you.

Henry dedicated to quality? , I remember when he came in, he fired people left and right, then he upped production to 400
electrics a day. This, at one point, had the wharehouses flooded with over production. You are not the only employee of Gibson, I have known many over the years, Most would not agree with you about your boss or your ideaism. Gibson is not by any measure the prince of guitar manufacturig today. This nervousness about the image of the company is exactly the motive that is driving the law suits.

Gibson is a bad business partner, I can't tell you how many folks you guys have screwed, but then you surely know this, no one I know will send supplies or services to Gibson without being paid up front. I bet you spend alot of time chasing checks down to give the UPS man.

If you had been in the Massman plant a few years ago you may have heard Henry begin a meeting one morning by telling his managers he could win a war with a female army by first shooting one in the head so the rest would fear him more than the enemy. I have learned this from a former Gibson manager.

I hope you get better treatment. I must say you do sound to me like the lint roller man in the "Rodger and me" movie.

posted 03-21-2004 06:44 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by WmMichael:
Sweet, what were you smoking during logic class at school?

The people on this board DO know a lot about acoustic guitars. No debate. Whether they are representative of the guitar buying public at large is a different question altogether.

Go play your Hummingbird...

---

If you have to ask what I was smoking,....

I do think this forum is a fair cross section of the guitar buying public (who use computers and post on boards like this).

We have newbies who know very little all the way up to those who believe they know it all.

posted 03-21-2004 09:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sweet Tyrone:
If you have to ask what I was smoking,....

I do think this forum is a fair cross section of the guitar buying public (who use computers and post on boards like this).

We have newbies who know very little all the way up to those who believe they know it all.

Yes, we have no hummingbirds today, but I'll roll ya up a Merrill.

---

HA! I'll take one of the Merrill's. Make it a jumbo will ya?

posted 03-21-2004 09:30 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by WmMichael:
HA! I'll take one of the Merrill's. Make it a jumbo will ya?

---

Is that jumbo a COPY of a Gibson design?

posted 03-21-2004 09:55 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by bobore:
Since Big Joe is in Gibson management, I would feel far better about the company if he actually seemed to be hearing and processing the concerns of people on this board......

---

Exactly.
Joe, the company I work for recently went through a bankruptcy. Old management failed in several ways, primarily by not being able to see and then act on changes in the market. The quality of our product was OK, but not up to what others were producing. Managements reaction to this challenge was to become embroiled in law suits with several of our competitors and to bluster.

Well, old management is gone, new is in. The difference is amazing. Employees feel safe about their jobs. Business plans are well thought out with appropriate experts involved. Divisions aer beng given the resources they need to work better, and the freedom to be creative. Managements attitude is no longer a delusional "we have the best product, so we don't need to listen to you" but "thank you for taking the time to comment on our product. Improving our service is job #1". AND THEY MEAN IT!!

From a PR standpoint, whether or not you truly believe them, coming to a forum visited by acoustic guitar afficianados and making statements like "there is not another builder on the planet building a better or higher quality instrument", Gibson is "building better than the pre-Norlin years" and "no one does a better job on Bluegrass instruments" is not the way to advance Gibson's best interests.
Hearing that Gibson management believes all is well with quality/price when many guitar buyers believe otherwise is not reassuring. Sounds like either delusional thinking or marketing hype. A bit less bluster and a bit more information about HOW Gibson is improving it's product would serve Gibson better. Rather than lashing out with dubious claims try thanking your potential customers for giving you free marketing information. Your best customers are not the ones who love your product, but the informed ones who critisize it.