posted 09-21-2003 04:57 AM               

If empirical evidence will be admitted to this discussion, I built my first cedar topped steel string over 150 years ago. It has held up fine, even after going through the gamut of different string types.
Good stuff!

posted 09-21-2003 06:25 AM               

And don`t put too much stock in all that "submerged wood" nonsense.

posted 09-21-2003 09:48 AM               

Back in the olden days, I recall my grandfather using a long blade-like contraption to split shingles off of what could have been a large chunk of firewood. He'd lay it across the endgrain, tap it with something, probably the flat end of an axe or hatchet, the wood split fairly easily, and off popped another shingle.

When he split firewood from whatever that wood was, it was a lot more effort, using an axe, and the wood didn't split nearly as cleanly.

posted 09-21-2003 10:35 AM            

and can you believe the l;atest craze in b boutique banjos is sunken wood rims
$400 upocharge

Stelling is goint to this stuff across the board on all their high line stuff

why cause there is an appreciable differnece

me thinks the buyer perceives a differenc because they paid the upcharge

as if a banjo tone is majorly affected by the rim material ( given same species sunken or floater) is I think beyond the empirical as is Kinnairds 150 year old cedar steel string

posted 09-21-2003 01:09 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by pakhan:
Absence of proof is not proof of absence? Come on, that's a common fallacy.

However, I don't assume that Cedar will fail after XZY years, I'm just saying that we just don't have the exidence to prove or disprove it yet. From I've read as well as a number of people here have taken that view.

If you wanted to take a reasonable comparision, I'd go for redwood tops as opposed to spruce because redwood and red cedar are more closely related than spruce and cedar are. Curly redwood tops have been to fail catastrophically (1), although there isn't much evidence of non figured redwood failing (2). It still doesn't tell us very much and I suspect that cedar will remain pretty much on par with spruce for a fairly long period of time and the differences may only show past a certain age.

Warmest Regards,
Terence

(1) 13thfret discussion; luthier post.
(2) RMMGA; luthier post.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by epaul:

Just because there are as yet no 60 year old cedar topped steel strings to test is no reason to assume they will poop out when they reach that point. There is just no reasonable basis to make that assumption.

Paul

---

I'm not sure you're exactly right. Redwood (and to some extent cedar) does not hold glue as well as the spruces. In addition, redwood and cedar have a lower weight to strength ratio. Proper top thickness and slightly different gluing methods solves these issues.

Actually, it doesn't matter much to me whether a cedar (or redwood) topped guitar will last 30 years or 130 years. I'll simply enjoy playing them (along with spruce topped instruments) in the meantime.

You're corrent about relative headroom. All other things being equal, a spruce topped guitar will (almost always) have more headroom than cedar or redwood. However, it takes less energy from the right hand to get sound out of a cedar or redwood topped instrument when compared to a spruce guitar (again, all other things being equal).

--
Stephen Boyke

posted 09-21-2003 03:33 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by sdelsolray:

You're corrent about relative headroom. All other things being equal, a spruce topped guitar will (almost always) have more headroom than cedar or redwood.

---

Laurence Juber last Saturday played my Cedar/Brazilian Roy Noble Concert at a party. He also played a new prototype Martin Om 28C GE.
My Cedar topped concert sounded like Ad/Braz Dread and many people there thought that was what LJ was playing untill they saw it was a Cedar topped concert. The new 28C GE sounded great but LJ after playing my guitar said it had taken him places he had not been before.

posted 09-22-2003 09:23 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rforman:
"Luthiers that have stated cedar will poop out with age: ???"

And for the record, James Goodall questions the longetivity of cedar, see his website under tonewoods.

---

James Goodall wrote "Some SMALL question about long term tone quality."

Tone

posted 09-22-2003 09:41 AM               

Pardon my sensitivity. There has been a Jackal sniffing around my posts. I am dealing with it.